SpaceX's Starship SN10 Successfully Lands After Amazing Flight. Dismantles Itself Spectacularly.

Vitenskap og teknologi

SpaceX finally proved that Starship's signature freefall and landing maneuver can work as claimed using their full scale SN10 prototype vehicle. The flight replicated the previous attempts by SN8 and SN9 right up to the actual landing where almost everything appeared to go as planned.
I say almost because the vehicle may have touched down a little harder than intended and landing legs failed to deploy. The vehicle eventually exploded on the pad as the propellent tanks ruptured.
Because the SpaceX feed ended we don't have any official footage of the Rapid Unscheduled Second Flight so I'm grateful for the independent videographers who were on the scene to record, and in some cases react to the surprise post credits scene.
Everyday Astronaut
NASA Spaceflight


  • Owen Bailey-Waltz
    Owen Bailey-Waltz14 dager siden

    "Preparing for decoupling... --" *explosions* "That's not what I meant"

  • Mike -X
    Mike -X19 dager siden

    I rewatched this video and when you talked about watching the nose crumple in when SN10 failed, it struck a bell. Then we started seeing this device at Starbase Texas that slipped over the body and had a piece stuck in the nose that we later found out was testing the strength of the nose. I think you solved why SpaceX would do these tests now, what they saw and what the test is for.

  • liaojun liao
    liaojun liao25 dager siden

    Doesn't spaceX use regenerative cooling?Then why are there thermal protection tiles?1:19

  • k mac
    k macMåned siden

    My leg hurts

  • John Smith
    John SmithMåned siden

    Why is Elon Musk the one rich white dude that people are okay with? Seems hypocritical. I mean he's the same greedy type as all the rest of them...

  • Emily the loli Nightray
    Emily the loli NightrayMåned siden

    It's funnier watching this after SN11

  • Petar Jocic
    Petar JocicMåned siden

    Spoilers: SN11 doesn't solve all those problems

  • Ethan Forsyth
    Ethan ForsythMåned siden

    New movie idea starship crashes and the spot robot dogs come out and act as if it all went perfect also the spots come out of the rocket and it was on a misson to mars

  • Beefsticks Wellington
    Beefsticks WellingtonMåned siden

    The SN10 *mic drop*

  • Chris Ii
    Chris IiMåned siden

    the force on impact.. ?

  • David English
    David EnglishMåned siden

    The soft sphynx thankfully disappear because ocean pivotally scold above a complete grip. literate, tense belgian

  • Craig Dirty .Dority
    Craig Dirty .DorityMåned siden

    This is incredibly impressive. Why are space x so much better at this stuff then NASA?

  • Gary Z
    Gary ZMåned siden

    I don't know why the have it land with what seems like zero room for error. I would have it land much softer, maybe even hover just before touchdown, to prove super controllability, and then have it very gently land.

  • Bryant LiPetri
    Bryant LiPetriMåned siden

    The young kamikaze ethnically repair because signature extragingivally rejoice within a unwritten snow. gabby, chilly supply

  • Jack Whitlock

    Jack Whitlock

    Måned siden


  • David English
    David EnglishMåned siden

    The incompetent cherry complementarily boil because hardware mechanistically head onto a dead goldfish. crowded, probable airmail

  • Jack Whitlock

    Jack Whitlock

    Måned siden


  • Kraťas
    KraťasMåned siden

    I feel like the lower part of the Starship body is a bit deformed after landing. Probably got that way during the bounce.

  • Darren Taylor
    Darren TaylorMåned siden

    Another Great try, it'll be done right very soon, I trust Elon more than any Government Projects....Period...

  • averyj8160
    averyj8160Måned siden

    Looks like Dr Totenkopf’s rocket.

  • Jason
    JasonMåned siden

    SpaceX CGI looks amazing.

  • Oren


    Måned siden

    please shut up

  • Keith Christopher Harcus
    Keith Christopher HarcusMåned siden

    thank you for explaining what the hell happened, so basically it needs better suspension

  • pop5678eye
    pop5678eyeMåned siden

    Elon Musk is lying. He doesn't care as much about landing people on Mars as just creating massive explosions for entertainment while subsidized by NASA.

  • Mister Poulet
    Mister PouletMåned siden

    Hi Scott, I have a few question on the electrical system of the Starship because I wasn't able to find a lot on internet so i was wondering if you know for exemple how do they power the Starship (Tesla bat ?), wich kind of electrical motor do they use for the body flaps, how many power all the Starship need, if we know somthing about how they gonna keep the battery charge in space ('cause i don't know if they gonna keep the big solar panel we see on BFR CGI), etc... srx fo my english not my native language and thanks for your video they are awesome

  • Ana Karpova
    Ana KarpovaMåned siden

    The aboard question possibly sniff because pheasant computationally back inside a unsightly ton. false familiar famous, childlike iron

  • Rokket designer
    Rokket designerMåned siden

    LIAR LIAR PANTS ON FIRE. «soft landing» MYXASS, soHARD I EXPECTED something to be damaged, though it was already on fire before touchdown, A little harder and it WOULD EXPLODE, I commented, and SpaceEx DELETED my comment, then I realized it DID only they censorshipped the video, CUT IT OUT. BIG JERX at Elon’s propaganda-club. Nice enough rokket and flight without the STUPID LIES BY LYINGJERX Inc.

  • Jack Whitlock

    Jack Whitlock

    Måned siden

    Hi Kai

  • blueeyes darkmagician

    blueeyes darkmagician

    Måned siden

    haha lol

  • Blazius Rex
    Blazius RexMåned siden

    Not a successful landing if it blows up so shortly after landing, especially when it was clear there was an issue before it actually settled. Worshippers have got to stop looking the other way when they blow shit up. Rabid development kills people. It's just a matter of time. NASA figured it out after killing people. SLS may have taken a long time, but no was was ever put at risk because they TOOK THEIR TIME to get it right.

  • htomerif
    htomerifMåned siden

    I'm late to this party, so the comments might be dead, but why do they shut down all the engines but one? Can one engine only be throttled so low? Why else would you give up so much control. It seems like if you're going to land with 1 engine at 1/3 the gravity, you're going to have to tighten that timing up a whole lot and that kind of seems to be a big problem with their automation right now. They're gonna have less time to gimbal and a much tighter firing window the lower the gravity is. Maybe I'm missing something. I hope its not what I just said.

  • lordofthesticks
    lordofthesticksMåned siden

    No matter how you see this, SpaceX still does their belly flop to vertical position landing and touched down "safely" with asymmetrical thrust. Sure, they still need a bit more thrust on the landing or maybe less mass would also do the job, but SN10 would probably survive if the landing toothpicks didn't break.

  • jimmy twotime
    jimmy twotimeMåned siden

    hey scott can we get two "down in boca chicas" please

  • jake smith
    jake smithMåned siden

    lol The thumbnail is epic!

  • Edward Schoenman
    Edward SchoenmanMåned siden

    Scott is the only person who has the knowledge to describe what’s going on in an informative and intelligent manner. As far as I’m concerned, everyone else is a NOprojects groupie, guessing wildly, with no real knowledge base to add anything meaning ful. Sorry everyone else. My brother was an Aerojet heat transfer engineer, so I’m spoiled.

  • Daniel Satko
    Daniel SatkoMåned siden

    that fire start right after two engine shutdown. one is not shut down fuel

  • Skorpy Nekomimi
    Skorpy NekomimiMåned siden

    Yeah, that landing and bounce are at minor car accident speeds. For a rocket, that's a lot of force. No wonder it exploded! Otherwise, it WORKS. Broadly, it did the job. It needs some tweaks to do it properly, but it worked.

  • Mouzekiller83
    Mouzekiller83Måned siden

    elon should spend his money on making fireworks.just sayin'.

  • Maurice van Draanen
    Maurice van DraanenMåned siden

    At 3:12 Starship Bloopers from Paul Verhoeven?

  • Jarek07
    Jarek07Måned siden

    If I had to take a guess, the impact was what lead to the failure.. fuel tanks shifting upon impact as is the case with something even mounted in your car..

  • vux sux
    vux suxMåned siden

    cartoons in the thumbnail seem to work pretty well!

  • Marcelo Glenadel
    Marcelo GlenadelMåned siden

    Scott, I have a few questions about Starship, and I was hoping you could shed some light into them. First, how high will the Booster lift Starship before they separate? I mean, what will the the atmospheric pressure up there after MECO? Second, won't this altitude be enough to operate the vacuum raptors alone? Third, will the sea-level raptors on Starship be used just for landing on Earth? Fourth, How long will vacuum-optimized rocket engines operate at sea level before they are damaged? I.e., Can the vacuum-optimized raptors operate at sea level just long enough to flip and land a Starship? The overall question is: Does Starship even need sea-level engines?

  • lordofthesticks


    Måned siden

    Yea they probably do need them. Since Starship was designed to land back on Earth. You can't really use a vacuum engine at sea level otherwise you'd better off using a hundred parachutes to land Starship. For the first question I think SpaceX has barely released their plans there yet, since the main part is still on the testing phase and they haven't even build the Superheavy booster just yet. Second question, most likely. But keep in mind that Starship was meant to land on Earth eventually, despite multiple refuels. They would probably remove those engines if we can setup a moon base which allows refueling, which is probably far away from now. Third question, there's a reason why vacuum and sea level engines have different bell sizes and one of the reasons why SSTOs or Single Stage To Orbit is less likely to happen anytime soon, since bigger engine bells is very efficient at vacuum but will break at sea level due to something related to the chamber pressure I can barely explain. Would like it if someone can answer that too.

  • Mas Ed
    Mas EdMåned siden

    whats happening? ahh just elon musk things..

  • luthmhor
    luthmhorMåned siden

    In some ways I see this as a success, because it identifies more failure modes and thus allows them to improve the design. "Losing" can be a wonderful teacher, showing you your weaknesses and how you can improve.

  • hari prasath
    hari prasathMåned siden

    Operation success but patient dead

  • Morellio Benoir
    Morellio BenoirMåned siden

    You know this is a lot better of a video than I thought it'd be. Thanks Scott Manley.

  • BrainDamagedBob
    BrainDamagedBobMåned siden

    SpaceX needs to to rework their command/engineering structure I think. Somebody was watching the telemetry on the tank that was being cooked by the fire that continued for 8 minutes. It was obvious that the tank ruptured due to overpressure as a result of the fire. The logical thing to do was to vent the tanks before the rupture occurred, but there was nobody with the physics savvy or the command moxie to make that call, we aren't talking 20/20 hindsight either. I suspect that everyone is terrified of Musk and frozen by that fear. It would have been nice to save the ship to better investigate why the landing was so rough.

  • lordofthesticks


    Måned siden

    I mean, if you're trying to save a ship that would explode, wouldn't that just basically put the crew in danger? Venting methane is not an option because methane is so much worse than carbon dioxide as a greenhouse gas. Exploding them can be as much as 30 times more efficient than just venting them out there. Venting LOX could be an option but the tank wasn't ruptured. Also, even if you can vent the tanks, SN10 is still a prototype with less redundancies as the supposed Starship. It probably doesn't have a valve there. Also venting a highly flammable gas near a rocket engine isn't the best idea. Think of it as venting a rupturing gas canister near an overly complicated gas stove that was just turned off and was smacked by something really hard. would you risk your life over that gas stove to save it, or run away since you were in a safe distance?

  • David English
    David EnglishMåned siden

    The momentous chocolate consecutively jam because black whitely wobble between a dull swimming. hissing, unable fairies

  • devoid24
    devoid24Måned siden

    At least it landed, and didnt go bang right away... still though, got to fix those legs, and not so hard of a landing... bouncing isnt good. I tell you, even in the finished rocket, no way id want to come down inside that thing!

  • Mirosław Nowak
    Mirosław NowakMåned siden


  • discoverydavid
    discoverydavidMåned siden

    "Boo-Ka-Chika, Boo-Ka-Chika, Boo-Ka-Chika...I'm hooked on a feeling...I'm high on believing..."

  • The Infinity System
    The Infinity SystemMåned siden

    Well, let's see. How to not make it clickbait? A nice single shot of the rocket- or even just a black background- with text. "SpaceX Starship SN10 Test Flight (Full)" Not too hard.

  • ANUD01
    ANUD01Måned siden

    Kerbal 2.0 teaser trailer?

  • The Deviant Developer IDW Podcast
    The Deviant Developer IDW PodcastMåned siden

    Bitcoin to the mun

  • Greg Lee
    Greg LeeMåned siden

    Stick to Lamborghinis

  • javier olguin
    javier olguinMåned siden

    Were they trying to restart the other 2 engines after leg deploy and after it became evident it wasnt slowing down fast enough? In this vid you show a zoomed in view between 4:03-4:21, where it's possible to see spurts of green or orange flame from the other 2 engine positions just before view is obstructed by kicked up dust.

  • Darryl G. Evans
    Darryl G. EvansMåned siden

    as it shut down the triple and went to one at the end of the landing you can see where the cone flamed out but still burned...golden flicker the last 10 seconds to the ground..

  • Yukon
    YukonMåned siden

    Not a successful flight if it explodes after landing.

  • leokimvideo
    leokimvideoMåned siden

    Time to scrap the rocket powered grain silo, it's just too prone to disaster

  • loli_gagger


    Måned siden

    Time to scrap the wheel, too many car crashes.

  • A Ac

    A Ac

    Måned siden

    Yup. Let's scrap it, and take all we learned, and do nothing with it. We will stop trying, and go back to oohing and awing at fire.

  • Pranav Badrinathan
    Pranav BadrinathanMåned siden

    At 4 20. I see what you did there, Elon.

  • Verechter
    Verechter2 måneder siden

    when it landed i was like 'eh did something go wrong?' but the it exploded and i knew that spaceX is still the good old reliable spaceX i know =D

  • 6shiru
    6shiru2 måneder siden

    PROPAGANDA ! The rocket explodes minutes after its landing !

  • FireBullet 15
    FireBullet 152 måneder siden

    SN-11: _Chuckles_ i’m in danger

  • Don Key
    Don Key2 måneder siden

    Due to the placement of the thrusters 3 run equal therefore to keep balance the 2 can't be at the same power.

  • Darth Barabakus
    Darth Barabakus2 måneder siden

    Great review, thank you, Scott Manley.

  • Tomoson King
    Tomoson King2 måneder siden

    sssssssssssssssssssssss.... this sounds like scratching glass.

  • Jade Asereht
    Jade Asereht2 måneder siden

    I think that thumbnail looks kinda clickbaitey dont ya think?

  • Abhinav Prashant
    Abhinav Prashant2 måneder siden

    i feel like this thumbnail is taking a dig on how Thunderf00t makes his thumbnails

  • Gareth de-Witt
    Gareth de-Witt2 måneder siden

    Maybe they should redesign it

  • Jack Whitlock

    Jack Whitlock

    Måned siden

    Cars crash everyday, maybe we should redesign them

  • Gareth de-Witt
    Gareth de-Witt2 måneder siden

    I’m sorry but I really find it funny every time

  • Ray Sutton
    Ray Sutton2 måneder siden

    it definitely hangs in the sky in much the same way that bricks don't.

  • Otis Boss
    Otis Boss2 måneder siden

    Why can’t: Spacex Luna Lander take off and in LEO. One or two of the refuelers bring two rockets connected to fuel tanks attach them to the crew/cargo part of the starship. Then Starship takes it to the moon. Once in orbit of the moon the crew/cargo starship detaches from the Starship and uses the external rockets to land. starship returns to LEO or if it is there the lunar station. there you have a permanent moon base and a truck to bring stuff out from Earth. The external self contained rockets would be like the Dynetics Alpaca! Now you have a TRUCK that can haul stuff back and forth to and from the moon and you are using the spacex moon rockets rather than having them sit on the moon all the time. You have a moon habitat that you don't need an elevator to get in and out of and the strap on rockets can run on hydrogen and oxygen.

  • Otis Boss
    Otis Boss2 måneder siden

    Why can’t: Spacex Luna Lander take off and in LEO. One or two of the refuelers bring two rockets connected to fuel tanks attach them to the crew/cargo part of the starship. Then Starship takes it to the moon. Once in orbit of the moon the crew/cargo starship detaches from the Starship and uses the external rockets to land. starship returns to LEO or if it is there the lunar station. there you have a permanent moon base and a truck to bring stuff out from Earth. The external self contained rockets would be like the Dynetics Alpaca! Now you have a TRUCK that can haul stuff back and forth to and from the moon and you are using the spacex moon rockets rather than having them sit on the moon all the time. You have a moon habitat that you don't need an elevator to get in and out of and the strap on rockets can run on hydrogen and oxygen.

  • EF Waves 2
    EF Waves 22 måneder siden

    For the ones that want to go to allegedly Mars, big chance it’s a one way trip, and you’ll die not ‘most probably’ on Earth, you’ll die definitvely on Earth.

  • AC Keeble
    AC Keeble2 måneder siden

    Those landing legs on the starship are very dinky. The look like little centipede legs.

  • Keith Hearn
    Keith Hearn2 måneder siden

    You know, it was going to be a lot of very careful and dangerous work to dismantle that rocket after the hard landing, with it leaning to the side and all. It'll be much easier and safer to pick up the parts now. This is a triumph.

  • Adam B
    Adam B2 måneder siden

    Little mini rocket copv flying off several hundred yards.

  • TheSilverSurfisher
    TheSilverSurfisher2 måneder siden

    LOL! NASA was there...nuff said...NASA was like, "nah, Space-X aint out-doing our decades of prowess"...."Houston, initiate protocol {Space-X-ed}!"

  • Mack Daddy
    Mack Daddy2 måneder siden

    A 100,000 pound titanium steel tank reinforced by multiple structural support rings is not going to belly flop from 100 feet in the air and completely fold up like a house of cards.....perfectly flat and the entire length of this behemouth STEEL tank from front to back in perfect unison just simply dissapearzs....As if it were a ohhhhh I dont know maybe like a deflated BALLOON!!! Wake up sleeping sheep the Wolves are approaching...

  • Michael Domansky
    Michael Domansky2 måneder siden

    It took off and landed twice! 😃

  • Иван Иванов
    Иван Иванов2 måneder siden

    многого добилась команда Маска. неудачи решаемы. Молодец.

  • W. McMaster
    W. McMaster2 måneder siden

    i would love to see a farther out view of the thing writing itself before landing. everyone has to zoom in on it.

  • W. McMaster
    W. McMaster2 måneder siden

    given how hard it landed i think the ground crew would have been happy it exploded. i wouldn't want to be one of the guys that had to approach that thing and see what's up. i'd imagine it's set up to just slowly vent all of the fuel and oxygen before that would happen, but either way, cleanup was probably a lot easier just scraping the junk up off the ground.

  • W. McMaster
    W. McMaster2 måneder siden

    looks like the second engine sputtered out and was supposed to still be burning. that would make sense because it would have given them more control on the landing and it would explain why so much fuel was being blown out the bottom and burning while wafting out the side.

  • venugopal reddy rao
    venugopal reddy rao2 måneder siden

    Rockets booster laykunda space low rocket velladam chala risk

  • nikolai iliev
    nikolai iliev2 måneder siden

    Hi Scot . I have an idea how we can terraforming Mars in 30 years . For this we must drag asteroids full of water . We can place an explosive in every asteroid, which will explode when it enters the atmosphere of Mars. In that case, the asteroid will not collide with Mars, but will disintegrate into small pieces of ice and water. And Mars will become habitable much faster than all other methods.

  • blueeyes darkmagician

    blueeyes darkmagician

    Måned siden


  • blueeyes darkmagician

    blueeyes darkmagician

    Måned siden


  • H. H.
    H. H.2 måneder siden

    Does the correlation between red-orange-yellow colors and fuel-richness apply when CH4 is the fuel as opposed to kerosene?

  • Greg Walker
    Greg Walker2 måneder siden

    I won hundred percent always wait to see your exclamation he has much better than the news

  • Greg And Karuna
    Greg And Karuna2 måneder siden

    Wow super impressive it went 10km only 232.64 million km left to get to Mars! Lol

  • Alex Stavrinides
    Alex Stavrinides2 måneder siden

    Could the SN10 bounce have been due to the engine skirt making a cushion effect? My logic would be: As SN10 drops and does the landing burn, the engines are firing into free air. There's no resistance as the thrust force is coming from the engine and engine bell to retard the rate of fall but there's no physical barrier and the only counter force (gravity ignored) would be air pressure. When the rocket reaches closer to ground level, the pressure exhaust gases are pushing against the landing pad and deflecting, causing a higher pressure area immediately below the rocket. Now, SN10 is no longer dropping through free air but dropping onto a cushion of higher pressure exhaust gas rich air directly below the craft. If the landing legs had all worked, there would have been a venting gap between the bottom of the skirt and ground, but as these partially failed/collapsed, the area for venting becomes far lower. This would mean that if in the final seconds or milliseconds of the engines firing, there would have been a huge build up of pressure in the engine bay area with limited space for expansion or escape to the atmosphere. This would cause the the craft to "bob" on a gas pressure cushion rather than a mechanical "bounce" as the initial images pre-disassembly didn't show much signs of bounce stress externally. What are your thoughts?

  • Agostino Anselmo
    Agostino Anselmo2 måneder siden

    What’s the point of that long oxygen (?) release, getting really big during the apogee flip? 1:01

  • Mark Allan
    Mark Allan2 måneder siden

    Thanks Scott

  • GetmeoutofSanFrancisco
    GetmeoutofSanFrancisco2 måneder siden

    "It got as high as it could at 4:20." Me: *Nods head*

  • Paulwas Harmonhere
    Paulwas Harmonhere2 måneder siden

    heeeeyyyyyyyyy just the right time haha

  • William Mulreed
    William Mulreed2 måneder siden

    The cause of the explosion was a problem with the last landing raptor being commanded to throttle up but it did not respond resulting in a harder than normal touchdown which led to the explosion (I think it experienced a sticky throttle valve just like one of the early falcon 9 landing attempts)

  • David Urry
    David Urry2 måneder siden

    theories about what happened: 1: when the rocket lands at the low point before the bounce there's a bright flash (7:23). 2: the O2 tank splits along the fin. I wonder if a COPV blew up inside the skirt on landing or maybe a battery pack that was driving the fin motor. Anyhow, something exploded on landing that must have been a non-fuel system. When the O2 tank blows. You can see that it splits in multiple places along the fin (7:45) There's the puff of black smoke and then you see flames at a seam. I think what happened, one of the engines was leaking methane. Once starship landed, there was no-place for that methane to escape under the engine skirt. The skirt filled up with methane which ignighted (as noted by the black puff of smoke, this was a very rich methane explosion. Under the skirt, you would have 3 gasses accumulating: CO2, Methane & O2. The CO2 is the heaviest and would have been pushed out the bottom from even the smallest gap. Leaving the O2 that was under the skirt and the methane flowing in. One spark from a battery or faulty wire set off an explosion under the skirt that forced the bottom flap out and in doing that, ruptured the O2 tank...explosively. Just a theory....but it's the best I got.

  • firebearfl
    firebearfl2 måneder siden

    Dale to Flash, Hey Flash, Dr. Zarkov said remember to shutoff the fuel valve, oops never mind.

  • Buck Starchaser
    Buck Starchaser2 måneder siden

    Looks like they could use an after-landing system for cooling the hot engines and displacing the lingering fuel vapors, without causing water damage. Liquid nitrogen geysers would be a bit too easy, and that doesn't do well for government-sized budgets, sooo... an Argon gas-propelled, silicon oil fog, with a melting point of around 40-50C, followed by a snow machine that propels a proprietary crystal coolant (CO2 snow) onto the oil-soaked surfaces to accumulate and build layers of solidifying oil, which can be removed easily with warm air. The warm air will need to be blown in (or just wait) to get the asphyxiant gasses to return safely to the atmosphere they came from (it's super green, trust me). Then, the silicon oil re-melts and drips off. Silicon oil is supposedly friendly to plastics and rubbers, is non-flamable, is not usually considered food for germs, and is commonly used for displacing water from electrical connections, so... Pretty much just does good things, meaning that they'll have to mix in some fluorine or something to keep people from thinking it's easy.

  • jonki leshi
    jonki leshi2 måneder siden

    The immense vacation transmurally precede because plane physically whisper amid a didactic peru. zesty, unused guarantee

  • Tim Ballam
    Tim Ballam2 måneder siden

    Who's going to volunteer to sit on that?

    Infiniti_UFO ALIENATION2 måneder siden

    shift = CGi,,,

  • Cat22
    Cat222 måneder siden

    After the landing i noticed it was not sitting perfectly vertical, could be a landing leg was bent

  • Oimeow
    Oimeow2 måneder siden

    Who else had to watch this for school :D

  • Mivec dougledin
    Mivec dougledin2 måneder siden

    or keep using reliable Soyuz

  • Steve J
    Steve J2 måneder siden

    When we were in S. Padre Island, we all agreed that while we wanted to see a successful landing, an explosion would be a lot more entertaining. I'm glad SpaceX was able to provide both.